Am I My Brothers Keeper....?
OK that’s it.
I was going to ignore the whole thing, but I checked Drudge as I usually do, and there it was staring me in the face!
I mean if Drudge thinks it’s important enough to link-to on his site, who am I to ignore it?
I am talking about ElAl and Shabbos observances or the lack thereof.
Let’s take it from the top.
We have a “medina” called Israel. Before I go on I should mention that I am an avid Zionist, not in the Ben-Gurion/Herzel sense but I do strongly believe in the land of Israel, and its right to exist.
So this wonderful country (and I really do love the place) with it’s tremendous attitude, and love for all of mankind has an airline. Actually more than one, but were talking about one specific carrier called ElAl.
ElAl’s slogan is “Feel at home anywhere in the world” and they truly do go above and beyond. From the moment you get in line to check in you’re greeted by that signature attitude that only an Israeli has. I love it, as soon as that young woman snaps, “are you sure you packed your bags yourself?” I feel right at home.
Sure there are those that require the posh dignified check-in of British Airways, or the bland American Continental, or even the suave Lufthansa, but I prefer the warm and friendly (cough) environment of ElAl.
OK, so it seems that they flew on Shabbos to make up for flights that were missed due to a strike. “Nu voos is azoy geferlach?” I asked my friend Moshe yesterday, “they had a “heskim” not to fly on Shabbos” was his staunch reply, “and they broke their word.”
OK, Iych her. They said that they wouldn’t fly on shabbos, they had a dire circumstance and they flew.
I don’t see what the big deal is.
If we are talking about Chilul Hashem, the fact that such a tumult was raised is only amplifying that Chilul, is it not?
Yes they flew on Shabbos, no it was not business as usual, and that would have been that, but instead we have a massive Chillul Hashem going on, and who is at fault? ElAl, or the kuchleflech that are stirring the pot?
We are not talking about a mom-and-pop shop here, were talking about an international Airline that made a decision to fly stranded passengers home.
On a side note, I was reading the English Hamodia this shabbos, and right on the front page was the whole story, including a paragraph about a fellow that had bought a bunch of tickets for a wedding, and was told by his poisik to accept the financial loss that would incur, and order new tickets with a different airline.
That raised my temper quite a bit; I don’t think I need to explain why.
Anyway, is it my business whether or not somebody else is michalel shabbos? And if he insists on continuing am I obligated to ruin him financially?
ElAl is not the only one, there is the classic example of Egged, a bus company that operates on Shabbos, yet we don’t see mass boycotting of the bus service do we?
Before you step into your favorite local taxi do you ask him if he drives on shabbos?
These are but two examples, I think the esteemed rabbis should get back to the problems that are at hand, such as ,,,,,,, well whatever problems there are, and leave ElAl alone.
There I feel better already!
posted by Chaim Chusid @ 6:46 PM
22 comments
22 Comments:
about a fellow that had bought a bunch of tickets for a wedding, and was told by his poisik to accept the financial loss that would incur, and order new tickets with a different airline.
We must immediately open a shomer shabbos therapy group because I too think I'm having a temper issue here.
Did you ever??? These rebbes that are so frum on the peasant's drushen real get the better of me.
And on the bigger issue, this subject, on a more personal front, reminds me of the 'troogen' in Williamsburg issue. I don't understand why in the world we have to care what others do.
I can not, for the life of me, understand why bochurim yell after women pushing carriages?
Why do I have to care what Elal does if I'm not oiver in the process?
Hypothetically speaking: say, a full fledge boycott by the so called chariedim will go into effect based on an essur being issued by some rabbunim, will it then make my flight to Israel aboard ELAL be a bit more airy? If yes, I might just root for the ban… I suspect many more likeminded Chasidim will take advantage of the ban, in fact I suspect so many Chasidim will take advantage that it will make the ban obsolete…
Madame Sox,
Immediately!!
Is it drushen or grushhen
A A C,
Hey you might have a point there!
I remain,
Chaim
In today's farkrimteh velt, righteous indignation (and I use this term sarcastically and loosely) boils down to one thing, and one thing only - what's in it for the proverbial me???
I A G N,
You said in two words what I said in a page and a half!
proverbial me
I remain,
CC
Precisly the Zionizm is the problem here. If you have a flagship "Jewish" airline and you want try to gain a financial advantage be evoking Jewsih feelings for the "Holy Land" you better behave "Jewish". By your stretch, if my office has been closed because of a blackout, can I go in shabbos to make up for my customers that have their customers waiting for the merchendise? This is my problem with Israel as a whole. Why keep the status quo? I would say declare to the world that Zionizm and Judaism are not one and the same and drop the status qup, fly on shabbos, start civil marriages, drop the Rabbinate and I everybody will be perfectly happy. It is the religious Zionists that are causing the rifts and conflicts. We have no obligation for a "Mimer" to make sure that he keeps the Torah. We have a problem with the ones that say look I am Jewish and you don't have to keep shabbos. This was the reason for the separation from the Reform and the other groups.
‘O wise one,
Is the problem Zionism? Or is it Jewish awareness? I think your mixing up the two.
Let’s say I have a Jewish company,, for example B+H if I was open on shabbos you wouldn’t have a problem with it? Of course you would, so the issue is not Zionism it’s the fact that a “Jewish” symbol operates on a day when Jews are not supposed to do any work.
Now let’s define” Jewish Feelings”. We are not talking about the ‘run of the mill heimish, frum crowd, because all of us know that it’s wrong to be michallel shabbos. The evocation of Jewish feeling is geared towards those that are michallel shabbos anyway, the quintessential “tinik shenishba”.
So by my stretch if you want to open your throne room on shabbos go right ahead, I am not gonna stop you, but you won’t because you believe that it is wrong.
There is also the little fact that ElAl “usually” doesn’t work on shabbos, actually the company policy is NOT to work on shabbos, and I think you should take that into account.
The problem you have with Zionism on a whole might be valid. What the world perceives as Jewish is actually quite different from what we believe. They also draw a parallel between Zionism and being Jewish, but who can blame them, ever met a non-Jewish Zionist?
The religious Zionists are causing conflicts and rifts?!?
I include myself in that category to some degree,, what rifts are we creating? And PLEASE tell me that the chasidishe oilim is not causing any rifts right here in the good ole US of A.
Your wording is precisely right “WE” have a problem with the ones that say look I am Jewish…” who are WE to judge?
I remain,
Chaim
Sorry, I meant to say "your Zionism" meaning religious Zionism. The rifts and conflict I am talking about is between secular and religious. Why does Israel have a status quo? Why can't a secular Israeli legally work in Israel on Shabbos? Why can't a secular Israeli marry a non-Jew in Israel? Why do you have a Rabbinate in Israel? The majority of Israelis don't want these things. What is the difference between ElAl and any other Israeli institution? You religious Zionists get out of the way of the secular Jew and let him live the life he wants. What a hypocrisy.
“O Wise One.
The rifts that you are talking about are between the secular, and SOME of the religious. The Ultra-Chasidish to be exact.
Israel has a status quo, and that bothers you? Your “shitta” is that Israel has no right to exist, that it essentially doesn’t exist, so why would you care about a status-quo?
But to answer your question, the state is a Jewish state; it was founded by Jews after the holocaust as a haven for any and all Jews that need such a place. Its purpose was and still is to prevent another holocaust.
So let’s see, we have a bunch of Jews establishing a state, what type of law would they put into place? Last I checked Monroe runs under Satmar’s customs and Skvere Shtatel under Skever custom, right? So the Jewish state has Jewish laws!
If the majority doesn’t want the laws, they can vote them out, for some odd reason they don’t.
There is no difference between ElAl and say Egged, that was my point. We are calling for a boycott of ElAl, but have you heard anyone boycott Egged?
Does the majority of frum, and ehrliche yidden in Israel use utilities, such as gas, and electric, and water on shabbos?
Of course they do, and in doing so they are encouraging a jew to be michalel Shabbos by giving him a job!
The religious Zionists get out of the way of secular jews, but it’s the Chassidim with the ultra-orthodox-fights that are the saints, correct?
I remain,
Chaim
Chaim,
For now I will give the freedom to make up my shitta the any which way you want, for all I care. But you have no right to make up your own facts. For purposes of understanding, when I refer to the religious Zionists here I don't mean the Mizrachi type, I mean the Agudah, Degel and Shas types.
"it was founded by Jews after the holocaust as a haven for any and all Jews that need such a place. Its purpose was and still is to prevent another holocaust."
Wrong, it was finalized and approved by the UN after the holocaust. It was founded by a collective of Jewish descendants, who despised the Jewish religion, in the early 20th century. The purpose was not so clear, as every group had a different purpose. For most of them it was to escape the pogroms and anti-Semitism in Europe. It had nothing to do with the holocaust, as the holocaust has not yet taken place. In order to join those settlements and groups, being Jewish was not a pre-requisite.
"So let’s see, we have a bunch of Jews establishing a state, what type of law would they put into place? Last I checked Monroe runs under Satmar’s customs and Skvere Shtatel under Skever custom, right? So the Jewish state has Jewish laws!"
Wrong again. Neither Kiryas Joel nor Skver can make any law that impedes anyone's religious freedom or any other constitutionally protected freedoms and they may not discriminate against anyone. The majority of Israel's laws are not rooted in Jewish law at all. Israel's laws are rooted in the English and Ottoman laws and traditions. Ben-gurion was afraid that the religious Jews would sabotage their efforts at the UN, he agreed to the status quo. In addition, he was looking for the legitimacy from the world and he couldn't do it if he didn't represent the religious Jews.
"If the majority doesn’t want the laws, they can vote them out, for some odd reason they don’t."
Again, you are not familiar with the Israeli "democratic" system. Israel is a party based proportional system. If your party gets votes below a certain percentage those votes are not counted and in certain cases even transferred to other parties. If you vote for one party, they may trade your vote with another party. In this type of democracy the people have to have a super super majority to change the laws the way they want. So don't come to me with this crap "they can vote them out, for some odd reason they don’t," it's not the US. Do you believe that a majority of Israelis want the Yeshiva boys to be exempt from military duty?
To me, ElAl and Egged are indeed the same, they are not different than the MTA. Remember, it wasn't the Badatz that wanted the boycott, it was the members of the Agudah and Degel.
‘ O Wise One,
I thank your highness very much for the freedoms that you have graciously bestowed upon me.
Aha, you should have said what you meant right away,, big difference between the Mizrachi’s and the Agidists.
When we say “it” was founded as a state, we talk of Israel, not of palatine, yes? Israel as a state was founded after the Shoah,,, BUT we are nitpicking here. What’s the difference who’s trying to kill you, be it the crusaders, the Russians, or the Germans, The point I was making is that Israel was founded, created, established, whatever you want, as a haven for Jews anywhere in the world undergoing persecution.
Your majesty will forgive his humble subject for saying so ,, but you missed the point once again. What I meant with Monroe and Skvere was that you follow the (and I believe I referenced specifically this word in my last response to you) CUSTOMS ; not laws,, but customs. Tell me if you had a big satellite dish on your roof, and your wife drove around with a little kerchief tied on her head, I am sure you would be ousted from the community. The leaders would look at your satellite dish, consider you constitutional rights,, and promptly call a moving truck and have you evicted.
English and Ottoman laws are based on the Judeo law system to begin with,, so what came first the English? Or Talmudic law?
Yes your right ‘ole BG wanted the support of the religious Jews, as does today’s government, nu? What’s the point?
By party based I suppose you mean a parliamentary government. As far as I can remember the right, or left, always needed the support of the religious parties to have enough seats to actually take control of the country. And since they required the votes of Gimel, Degel, Shas , etc. they needed to comply with their demands, hence the religious laws were never voted out.
Of course the majority of Israelis want the yeshiva boys to go into active duty, but then again that would be political and practical nightmare.
And lastly ‘highness, if ElAl and Egged are like the MTA, I either expect you to forfeit your royal MTA coach, or leave ElAl alone.
The Baadatz are worth a post all to themselves, I think I would write it with the godfather music theme playing in the background.
I remain,
Chaim
Chaim,
You are confusing me.
You begin with writing "We have a “medina” called Israel. Before I go on I should mention that I am an avid Zionist, not in the Ben-Gurion/Herzel sense but I do strongly believe in the land of Israel, and its right to exist.
So this wonderful country (and I really do love the place) with it’s tremendous attitude, and love for all of mankind has an airline. Actually more than one, but were talking about one specific carrier called ElAl...
...Yes they flew on Shabbos, no it was not business as usual, and that would have been that, but instead we have a massive Chillul Hashem going on, and who is at fault? ElAl, or the kuchleflech that are stirring the pot?"
Your argument basically is "men hot shoin gehert azons"
Now let me paraphrase my argument. If you want to have a Zionist and Jewish state, and all the state companies and ministries etc. are an extension of such state, then your argument is illogical. If you want to have it Jewish then keep it Jewish, if you don't, then keep it simply Zionist and forget about Judaism. You can't pick and choose.
Now, it is obvious that Israel is not a Jewish state. Those few Jewish laws that are in place were forced upon the majority. Would Israel have had a constituency democracy, these laws would have been erased a long time ago. Those religious Zionists are forcing these laws upon the majority against their will.
Now I will repeat what I wrote. It is Zionist like you, who believe that Israel is a Jewish state, who are the source for the fiasco with ElAl. I view Israel as any other country where religious Jews are even persecuted, sometimes. To me egged and ElAl are like the MTA. Israel has a right to exist as a Zionist state but not as a Jewish state. The problem with Israel is their insistence on being called the Jewish state and purporting to stand for all Jews. If you understand that Reform Judaism is not Judaism then you must understand the same goes for Israel. The religious Jews should not impose their rule on the secular ones. Accept your "gollus" in the state called Israel.
As long as "you" insist on the connection of Zionism and Judaism and don't want to give up the Status quo you must demand ElAl to keep shabbos. Otherwise, you are a hypocrite.
Just a side note. Your argument "English and Ottoman laws are based on the Judeo law system to begin with,, so what came first the English? Or Talmudic law?" is absurd. Why do you have to take the long route to Talmudic law, through English and Ottoman laws if you can go directly to the source? Israel does not want Talmudic law.
Your Zionist history knowledge is so poor and therefore you fit right in with the Agudah. The Agudah also very quickly forgot their history.
King Sal,
Before you insult your subjects, perhaps get to know them.
If you have read any of my writings you would by now realize that I am not an Agadist.
Want it or not, Talmudic law is totally laced into the judicial structure of Israel.
The connection between Zionism and Judaism is profound. The world perceives a Jew as a Zionist and vice versa, there is nothing you can do about it.
This same world could not give a hoot whether or not ElAl flew on shabbos, but suddenly perks up when a bunch of Chasidim start going to Holocaust-denying parties.
So you tell me what’s a bigger Chillul Hashem.
Chaim
You are going off on a tangent.
King Sal,
Is that your easy way out?
I remain,
Chaim
I am torn on this one. I hear both sides of the arguments.
Lake,
That's a rather parve opinion...
I Remain,
CC
Maybe you should try to contact one of the Rabbonim involved to explain the reason for this all.
Inde,
You can't be serious!
I remain,
Chaim
Caim, Caim, Caim. I'm back. When's a new post comin'? I re-opened my blog but well, not much to comment about. Come by when you have a minute.
Shpitz
Initially I thoight like you...but the bottom line is ALL the gedolim are now behind it..and so I sacrifice my de'ah
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